RE: RE: “Isaiah 9:6 mention Mesiah as Mighty God meaning Yahusha is The Almighty or?” – (01)
This writing is a commentary on the “answer” I receive from a believer and a defender of the “human messiah” concept of Jesus Christ. I may only put some of the important points in here. I have learned that in answering my comments the ‘apologist’ seemed to loose some of my points by not including them in his answer. Therefore, I will put the whole discussion of each point I quoted from the beginning of this discussion in order to place the line of thoughts back on their tracks. Any missing part of in the defender’s quote of my comment or of the quote of my quote from the origin (Quote ##) will be added in its proper place in ‘italics’. It appears that I will need to rearrange the apologist’s answer to get a proper line of argument. This discussion will be posted in three series instead of just one long and boring post. The verses I quote is from NIV Bible, unless stated otherwise. Thank you for being so patient with me.
Before I go on with the main discussion, I’d like to bring our attention at the time just before Jesus took up His cross. Before Jesus completed His mission He comforted and strengthened His disciples saying,
“And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.” (John 14:16-17)
“But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth.” (John 16:13a)
We believe that God knows that His believers need a helper, ‘a spiritual expert’ to see the truth of His thought written in the Bible, since His word is spirit and life (John 6:63). Jesus would not send the Holy Spirit to His disciples if He knew that they (and so are we) were able to find the truth of God in the Bible by themselves. This is not a new way of God guiding His people. He’d been doing this since the Old Testament time as we can see in the story of Balaam; > “When Balaam looked out and saw Israel encamped tribe by tribe, the Spirit of God came upon him” (Numbers 24:2), that led him to bless Israel. Who on earth has the right to deny Jesus’ Word above and claim that God is also leading His people without the Holy Spirit? Without the help of the Holy Spirit, no one can find the truth about Jesus – about God.
Now you can understand, how hard it is to discuss the truth of God’s Word with someone who says, “I believe I once wrote here something like: “Simply because there is no such thing as the Holy Spirit of the Trinity.” One of direct consequences of this statement is that Jesus’ Word in Matthew 28:18,
“Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,”
is claimed to be false. But, since this kind of people finds it easier to deny Trinity using the physical side of Jesus, so far there has not been much comment on the Holy Spirit. With this, fortunately, I am now able to have more appreciation on Jesus’ effort and feeling when He tried to pass His messages on to the scribes, Pharisees and Sadducees, as He said,
“But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which a man may eat and not die. I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.” (John 6:50-51)
for they were stubborn, deaf and blinded by their pride to be religious leaders and experts of the law that they failed to see that there has not been a single human being with a straight mind who claims to be ‘a living bread coming down from heaven.’
- Quote from Samuel :
This short note was sent to by a friend, to support his opinion that Jesus is not God. I am not sure about the original source of this note but I can be sure that the source won’t be too far from the one who wrote, “IF MESIAH IS THE ALMIGHTY THEN HOW CAN ALMIGHTY BE TEMPTED WITH LUST AND EVIL?” and “The Historic Translation of John 1:3-4” we have just discussed. May the Holy Spirit help me to bring up all things that are not parallel to the Truth, Who is also the Way and the Life – Jesus the Christ.
It is not a merely an opinion, if you read wish to see the scripture consistently, if you are sincerely looking for understanding and the truth, the scripture will prove it to be the truth, that the Almighty Creator is Yahuah, He is an eternal spirit, once again SPIRIT! an NOT A MAN!
As you can see, the apologist insisted that ‘his word is of the truth of the Scriptures’, while he denies the existence of the Holy Spirit. So his truth is based on himself – that he alone has the right and ability to correctly interpret “God’s Word.” Or he is defending the “truth” of other people who have the same right and ability. I think I’d better be consistent: this is just an opinion! I agree that God is a Spirit and not a man. My question is, “Does the apologist know what he’s saying?”
Quote 01 :
The word “God” (Elohim) is properly applied to Yahusha in Heb.1:9 and Jn.20:28. Both words are from the Greek word “theos” which was also used in reference to Satan (2 Cor.4:4) and Herod (Acts 12:22). It has the same meaning as the Hebrew word “Elohim” and can be applied to men, angels, and the Almighty. Ps.82:6 applies it to any child of the Most High; “I have said, Ye are gods [Elohim]; and all of you are children of the most High.” It simply means “a mighty one among his people.”
Yahusha said this :
Joh 4:24 NIV
God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth.
NOT A MAN! READ THIS PASSAGE OPEN YOUR EYES AND RECEIVE UNDERSTANDING!
Numbers 23:19 ( YHWH Almighty Creator or you choose to say G-d spoke to Balak through the word of Balaam )
God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?
HE IS ONE! NOT THREE,
Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one. (the LORD here is the name of the creator, tetragrammaton YHWH YAHUAH, God here is representated by the word Elohim meaning Mighty One)
Here is Numbers 23:19 again,
“God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?”
What is the common basic argument of claiming the Jesus is mere a man? “His physical appearance” or “His human form!” What the central message of Numbers 23:19 is concerned about, God’s natural form or His characteristics? Numbers 23:19 is revealing God’s characteristics (contrasted to that of man). Now, take a look at Jesus’ characteristic. He is sinless (Hebrew 4:15, John 8:46, etc) and so He never lie. Jesus did all that He said and fulfilled all that He promised except His second coming to this earth, yet. Meanwhile, 1 Kings 8:46 and Romans 3:23 and 5:12, say that all men have sinned. In other words, there is not a single sinless human being. These conclude that characteristically, Jesus cannot be just a human being but God. Now we can see Colossians 1:19 more clearly when it says,
“For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,”
that God’s is Spirit and undivided Spirit Who dwell in the physical body of Jesus Christ. Therefore, Jesus said clearly,
“I and the Father are one,” (John 10:30)
and NOT ‘I and the Father are two.’
The claim that God is three usually comes from those who are not associated with the Holy Spirit and who can just spell ‘God is Spirit’ without a proper understanding of the characteristic of the Spirit Itself. Therefore, this pathetic and embarrassing claim should never be spoken again by whoever claims to believe in God and Jesus as his Savior.
HE IS INVISIBLE, NO ONE HAS EVER SEEN HIM WITH HIS NAKED EYE AND YET ALIVE!
Exodus 33:20 – And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live. (YHWH the Almighty Creator /the Father is speaking!)
John 1:18 KJV – No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
John 5:37 – And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His shape.
John 6:46 – Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.”
1 Jn. 4:12 – No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and His love is perfected in us.
1Tim 1:17 – Now unto the King eternal, immortal, INVISIBLE, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
1 Tim.6:16 – Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.
This means physical eyes can not see him, Yahusha was a man, visible, man hath seen, He is Son of Yahuah (G-d), He is the Mesiah, Lord but not G-d!
cause no man hath seen the Father, the only wise G-d, those who say Yahusha is the Father is without understanding!
Does any of the above verses quoted by the apologist specifically say which part of God that cannot be seen? I have a feeling that we’re being led toward some physical understanding concerning God in compare to Jesus. It is obvious that since God is Spirit then He cannot be seen with physical eyes. The term ‘no one has seen god and yet alive’ is very much refers to a sinful human being in God’s holy presence when He appears with all His being. No one can ever stand that heavy load. This following verses shows that,
“When the people saw the thunder and lightning and heard the trumpet and saw the mountain in smoke, they trembled with fear. They stayed at a distance and said to Moses, “Speak to us yourself and we will listen. But do not have God speak to us or we will die.”” (Exodus 20:18-19)
the people of Israel were terrified to death just by God’s symbolical appearance and His voice. Do not expect them to see more of God. They may drop dead before Him.
So far, the phenomena describes by ‘seeing God’ is related to the ‘physical appearance of God, ’ God Himself decides to take which will not harm the people, as in;
“So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, “It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared.” (Genesis 32:30)
“Moses and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and the seventy elders of Israel went up 10 and saw the God of Israel.” (Exodus 24:9-10a)
“When my glory passes by, I will put you in a cleft in the rock and cover you with my hand until I have passed by. Then I will remove my hand and you will see my back; but my face must not be seen.” (Exodus 33:22-23)
“We are doomed to die!” he [Manoah] said to his wife. “We have seen God!” (Judges 13:22)
You can also read 1 Kings 22:19 or 2 Chronicles 18:18, Isaiah 6:1 which show that many have seen God and yet alive. Why? Because God took a specific physical form to reveal Himself to men without endangering their lives. Now we understand better that when Jesus said,
“Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father” (John 14:9b)
He did not mean His physical appearance but His characteristics, His sinless nature His power, His love – His spiritual appearance. Or maybe the apologist and his seniors have the right to renounce Jesus’ Word above? Can anyone deny it if God decides to appear in the physical body form as Jesus? Some times, people think and act as if they know better and have more authority than God Himself.
THE ORIGINAL SOURCE IS HERE :
this site is not to support opinion but to PROVE THAT THE BIBLE CONSISTENTLY TELL THAT YAHUAH IS ALMIGHTY CREATOR / you-choose-to-call G-D AND YAHUSHA THE MESIAH A MAN IS SON OF YAHUAH
You see what I mean? They know better than God and have more power to exclude the Holy Spirit in claiming the truth (so they said) that Jesus was a human Messiah. I know that some Jews had anticipated the promise of the coming Messiah as man who would physically sit on David’s throne to restore the kingdom of Israel. Therefore, they wanted to “make him king by force.” (John 6:15) But they were disappointed for Jesus appeared to be the savior of men from the spiritual bondage – sin and death. And as I said, if it takes a God to deliver His people from physical bondage, how much more should it take to deliver all men from spiritual bondage? How can “an unblemished lamb” of sin offering be replace by a human being if no one is sinless? It takes s God!
Quote from Samuel :
I think it will be wise to see all the verses brought up by the writer then we can relate them to the writer’s arguments.
“You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy.” (Hebrews 1:9, NIV)
“Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”” (John 20:28, NIV)
“The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.” (2 Corinthians 4:4, NIV)
“(21) >On the appointed day Herod, wearing his royal robes, sat on his throne and delivered a public address to the people. (22) They shouted, “This is the voice of a god, not of a man.” (Acts 12:21-22)
“(6) I said, ‘You are “gods”; you are all sons of the Most High.’ (7) But you will die like mere men; you will fall like every other ruler.” (8) Rise up, O God, judge the earth, for all the nations are your inheritance.” (Psalm 82:6-8)
What the writer has in mind is that if the word “theos” or “god” can refer to anybody from Satan, man, angel to God, then Jesus, as is mentioned in Hebrews 1:9 and John 20:28 can also be any person from that list. This is very dangerous argument since no one can be Satan and God at the same time. Even though the meaning of the word “theos” does not change in the above verses, it should be easily understood that the persons it refers to are not the same. Therefore, “theos” in New Testament is translated to “god(s)” but is written differently depending of who it refers to.
It is clear that the writer of the Book of Hebrews in Hebrews 1:9 and Thomas in John 20:28 was pointing to the Almighty God, the Maker of Heaven and Earth, Who used the same term mentioned in 2 Corinthians 4:4 and in Acts 12:21-22, when He said, “You shall have no other gods before me” (Exodus 20:3). Psalm 82:6-8 illustrates beautifully how God remarkably differs from god(s).
Let me clear the context, the title of the article is “Isaiah 9:6 mention Mesiah as Mighty God meaning Yahusha is The Almighty or?”
“For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.”
is a verse usually used by “God in flesh promoter” to claim that Yahusha is “God in the flesh”, the writer of the article wanted to prove that the word Elohim/God does not necessarily mean the Almighty Creator.
I think we will have a separate section for the discussion on this Isaiah 9:6. So, let’s get back to the main course of Quote 01 where my comment is incompletely quoted by the apologist under the “Quote from Samuel”
So Samuel you say that the God in Hebrews 1:9, John 20:28 was pointing to the Almighty God was it?
Let me put this part back to its original track. I deliberately put together Hebrews 1:9, John 20:28, 2 Corinthians 4:4 and Acts 12:21-22 because the ‘writer’ (who sent this original article to the apologist) used this verse to claim that Greek word ‘theos’ can be used to God, man, angels and even Satan, and therefore, Jesus can be called anything but God. My argument was clear that although ‘theos’ were used in the above verses with Psalm 82:6-8 as another example, it refers to different persons such as to God in Hebrews 1:9 and John 20:28 while pointing out to Jesus. The above statement is correct! Now, let’s look at new arguments brought up by the apologist.
Hebrews 1:8 But of the Son He says, “YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.
Hebrews 1:9 You love righteousness and hate wickedness; therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy.
We know that Hebrews 1:8-9 was taken from Psalms 45:6-7, the writer of Psalms was in a prophetic way telling the story of the King to come that is the Mesiah, this means that David was talking as if YAHUAH/Almighty God was talking, YAHUAH/Almighty God called His Son God( this word God – Samuel you understand this as refering to YAHUAH/Almighty God, correct?)
the writer of Hebrews confirms that Psalms 45:6-7 was about the Son which is YAHUSHA, this we dont have anything to argue,
BUT lets take a look on Hebrews 1:9 or Psalms 45:7, the verse continued with YAHUAH through tongue of David praising the Mesiah as
“You love righteousness and hate wickedness” (the word You here refers to the one that was just recently called as God in Hebrews 1:8, correct?),
the verse continued
“therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy”
Here we have another God, which is the God of the previous God set the previous God above his companions.
I am sorry but if I were to receive this verse then I would have to receive this implications :
1)The Son YAHUSHA IS ALMIGHTY GOD,
2)The Son who is now an ALMIGHTY GOD, HAVE ANOTHER GOD
3)Since this ALMIGHTY GOD HAVE ANOTHER GOD, THEN THIS ALMIGHTY GOD IS NOT AN ALMIGHTY GOD, the verses CONTRADICTING BY ITSELF
NOW PLEASE KINDLY PROVIDE ME WITH UNDERSTANDING, IF THE GOD IN PSALMS 45:7 REFERS TO THE ALMIGHTY GOD EXPLAIN HOW A ALMIGHTY GOD CAN HAVE ANOTHER GOD? HELP ME SO I CAN BE PARALLEL WITH THE TRUTH!
The following are the verses in dispute. Before that, I need to ask the apologist not to stuff his words into my mouth as in Psalm 45:6-7.
“But about the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy.” (Hebrews -1:8-9, NIV)
“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever; a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom. (7)You love righteousness and hate wickedness; therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy.” (Psalm 45:6-7)
From Hebrews 1, we pick some interesting terms like, ‘God spoke to’ (v.1), ‘he has spoken to us by his Son’ (v.2), ‘did God ever say’ (v.5), ‘he says’ (v.6), of the angels ‘he speaks’ (v.7), ‘about the Son he says’ (v.8), ‘He also says’ (v.10), of the angels ‘did God ever say (v.13). These all show us that it was God Who does the talking. So if God says about the Son, “Your throne, O God…,” do we have a problem with that – what proper word should we put in God’s mouth? These spoken words can only be discerned if Jesus is God, as Jesus had said that “I and the Father are one,” (John 10:30). So, in this case, God is talking about Himself in the form of the Son.
Illuminated by God’s Spirit, the psalmist prophesied the coming King – the Messiah. All verses were talking about the King. But, unexpectedly the psalmist seemed to divert from his main course in verse 6. Why did he do that? Did he want to praise God in the middle of the prophecy? This means God was praising Himself through the illumination of His Spirit on the psalmist. If this is acceptable, then why should “God talking about Himself in the form of Messiah” be rejected. Would it be possible that under such revelation, the psalmist was given a vision that the King who is the Messiah is also God Himself? To be honest, I do NOT have a problem with these possibilities. The confusions belong to those who deny Jesus’ divinity without a proper knowledge of and relationship with the Holy Spirit. In turn, this creates a real problem as they tried to pour their confusions into our heads claiming that the problems are ours – and therefore it is our faiths that are in jeopardy.